vbap3D Sources inside speaker setup

marijn · November 21, 2020, 2:46pm

Hello dear community,

I know it is in the nature of Vbap3D to work only outside the speaker setup, but what would be possible to compensate for the following solution:

I have noticed: when placing sources inside the loudspeaker setup, the source automatically is moved to the top speakers. I would really like the middle ring of speakers to stay active and fade smoothly trough the center. Is there a way to achieve this?

Strange center behaviour on the bottom half of the vbap3D setup:
Divergence radius only seems to works on the upper half of the speaker setup, when moving sources on the bottom, the sound will just jump from one side to the other. also: when positioning a sound in the middle, on the bottom half; the sound completely disappears. Is there a way to fix this?

Main question is: How do I create smooth center transitions on a 3D setup?

Greetings, Marijn Cinjee

tcarpent · November 22, 2020, 12:08pm

Hi,

I have noticed: when placing sources inside the loudspeaker setup, the source automatically is moved to the top speakers.

I presume you are using spat5.oper + spat5.spat~ ?
In that case (and unlike spat5.pan~), the source “slides over” the sphere surrounding the listener. See paragraph “Source radius” in Spat5-UserManual.pdf.
I’m afraid this mechanism is a little bit contradictory with the “divergence” mechanism.
Unsure yet how to cope with that…

Divergence radius only seems to works on the upper half of the speaker setup, when moving sources on the bottom, the sound will just jump from one side to the other.

Regardless of divergence, that sounds like an issue with missing phantom speaker for your speaker layout. No ? Have a look at spat5.tuto-phantom-1.maxpat if needed.
Otherwise, feel free to send a piece of patch so that I can inspect more carefully.

Best,
T.

marijn · November 22, 2020, 6:46pm

Hi T,

Thank you for your quick and clear response. So if I understand it correctly, there is a difference in the way spat.pan handles sources inside the loudspeaker setup compared to spat.spat~?

This is my setup:


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I implemented the [/phantom/automute 1] attribute. However, this does not seem to work on the bottom half of the 3D setup.

Many thanks for taking a look.

Kind regards, Marijn.

smalllotus · November 22, 2020, 10:34pm

just two thing, only details,

you don’t need to send a bang with /speakers/xyz

you can also use mc.dac~

Best,

Jerome

marijn · November 22, 2020, 10:41pm

Thanks. I am using DAC~ Because I am sending out the audio with jack audio connection Kit. Jack does not seem to work with mc.dac~ for some reason.

tcarpent · November 23, 2020, 3:36pm

Hi marijn,

So if I understand it correctly, there is a difference in the way spat.pan handles sources inside the loudspeaker setup compared to spat.spat~?

I would not say that exactly :
There is no notion of “inside the loudspeaker setup”.
But spat5.spat~ treats the sound sources differently whether their distance is greater or lesser than the “source radius” parameter.
On the other hand, spat5.pan~ has no such “source radius” parameter.
So, yes, there is a difference in the way spat5.spat~ and spat5.pan~ handle the sources depending on their distance (and depending on the “source radius” setting of spat5.spat~).

I implemented the [/phantom/auto 1] attribute. However, this does not seem to work on the bottom half of the 3D setup.

Can you be more specific ? At first glance, the behavior seems normal to me.
Please indicate what seems wrong : for which source position(s) do you notice something that is different from your expectation.

tcarpent · November 23, 2020, 3:36pm

I am using DAC~ Because I am sending out the audio with jack audio connection Kit. Jack does not seem to work with mc.dac~ for some reason.

Oh, I was not aware of that. Good to know.

marijn · November 23, 2020, 3:54pm

@tcarpent I have investigated the differences between spat5.spat~ and spat5.pan~. Indeed spat5.pan~ does exactly what I want. However there are some things I would like to keep from spat5.spat~ and oper:

Distance attenuation: (you already answered that question!)
Doppler, direct, early, cluster and late controls per source.

I have investigated the spat5.room~ object. However, the object was meant for 1 source. It seems strange to me that I should copy the spat5.room~ object for every audiosource. I was thinking about creating a solution for this in poly~. This is because dynamic rescripting of the number of sources. (mc tuto 2). Is there a smarter way to implement the direct, early, cluster, late and doppler controls in a way that I can set those params per source? Or maybe change the behaviour of spat5.spat?

Greetings, marijn

marijn · November 23, 2020, 4:00pm

when using mc.dac~ only the first channel will pass trough to Jack. (tested
on windows)

tcarpent · November 23, 2020, 4:37pm

I have investigated the differences between spat5.spat~ and spat5.pan~. Indeed spat5.pan~ does exactly what I want. However there are some things I would like to keep from spat5.spat~ and oper […]

I understand your request, and it makes sense.

The reason spat5.room~ is limited to only one source is that it requires (at least) 25 output channels (per source). So, having spat5.room~ with multiple sources was not realistic before the introduction of MC.
Now that we have MC, I can certainly extend spat5.room~ to support multiple sources. It should not be too difficult/long. (and would be easier for you than using poly~)

Or maybe change the behaviour of spat5.spat?

I’ll think about it, regarding a better cohabitation of radius / divergence.
Although I’m a little more reluctant to changing the behaviour of spat5.spat~ as this is more touchy, and impacts many users.

smalllotus · November 23, 2020, 4:43pm

Hi,

Oh Jack… thank you for your information…

Best,

Jerome

PS : it’s the same for POLY~ out, no MC, got to split…

marijn · November 23, 2020, 5:01pm

EDIT: I am beginning to understand the radius message a bit better. I originally thought it was only changing the volume. Now I see it has a clear effect on the speaker panning. Armed with this knowledge. I can get a bit further!

Hi T,

To give you a bit more context:
I am working on a spatial sound installation for a Virtual reality cave. The simulation will be running in Unity3D. The object data from game-objects is directly linked to spat5 sources. Audio is being streamed in from the Unity3D mixer using Jack. The spat5 tool I am building dynamically adapts to the number of channels in Unity3D and spatialize the audio inside the Cave. As you might understand, these objects can fly anywhere. I am trying to achieve a foolproof system. Where a source can be moved in all possible directions, inside and outside the speaker setup without creating any kind of audible position jumps. Also: an experiment will be done with a tracking wand. This wand will be inside the speaker setup.

When the source is moved inside the setup: A number of things happen that I would like to change for my case:

(this is a big one:) Moving a source Up and down inside the speaker setup: the source will jump from top to bottom. It would be much better if the audio would pan smoothly on the vertical axis too!
Example: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ma9kEoIoQKfvhv4cW-JYOskzCiM_epN9/view?usp=sharing
Moving a source across the bottom center: Seems to be working now, I changed the radius.
Moving a Source on the horizontal axis on the top half of the speakerdome: audio moves over the ceiling. This is cool, but not really what I am looking for. I would like the speakers to stay active, and spread center.

Spat5.pan~ solves a lot of these questions. But now the question remains: how to keep using the excellent ircamverb~ system. using: Direct, early, cluster, and late components for the sources. for example, we fade out the direct signal when an object disappears behind virtual wall. This works really well.

About this project:
This tool will be designed for game developers who don’t really know to much about audio. Therefore I am building a really simple UI that only takes in XYZ position data. and automatically syncs everything else to the Unity project.
It is for research purposes only. The use of spat5 will be clearly mentioned.

I hope this makes my situation a bit more clear.

Greetings, Marijn.

marijn · November 23, 2020, 5:11pm

Hi T,

Thank you for acknowledging my request. I do not expect you to change spat just for my specific problem, but it would be a great improvement I think! I totally understand that it is unrealistic to to use multiple spat5.room~'s in multichannel. I am looking for a solution where I can send multiple sources to one room. Just like with spat5.spat~ and spat5.oper~. I have not yet been able to find a really suitable solution to this problem.

smalllotus · November 23, 2020, 5:43pm

I like your cave very much,

Did you have a look at Panoramix ?

it’s embed in Spat5 patchers… You can find it here :

Packages/spat5/patchers/Panoramix-Ircam.maxpat

Hoping it helps,

Best, Jerome

marijn · November 23, 2020, 5:50pm

I am glad you like this cave setup! It is the biggest spatial audio project I have ever done. Feel free to get in contact with me about this project if you are interested.
Thank you for the information! Panoramix seems like very nice tool also.

marijn · November 23, 2020, 8:36pm

I understand a lot better how the radius message behaves. I managed to get a more satisfactory result by setting the radius lower. I also build something to increase the aperture as sources get closer to the center, and spreading as well. With these changes, everything works a lot better.

tcarpent · November 23, 2020, 10:49pm

Thanks for sharing the details of your project. That looks really interesting, and your intents are clear and meaningful.

In the hope to further help you achieve your goals, my short-term plan is to extend spat5.room~ to multiple sources. This might not be to “easiest” solution to your issues, but spat5.room~ is an object that will give you the maximum freedom (= responsibility) for panning and gains control. It will simply deliver reverberated channels that you can pan as you wish (using spat5.pan~ or any other tools you wish).

I am happy though if you found a way to “tweak” the radius so as to obtain satisfactory results.

All the best,
T.

marijn · November 24, 2020, 8:17am

I am looking forward to it!