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Questions about Spat and Ableton Live (M4L) integration

Spat
#1

Hi,

I’m developing a binaural audio project and I’m trying to figure out the best tools for the job. I had an eye on Spat by Flux for months but I would not be able to buy it, since I live in Brazil and the conversion currency rates are so crazy that the asked price would be something like 6 months of my rent. Needless to say I was happy to discover this MAX/MSP version costing much less.

It’s possible such question was already answered in trend written in french, but as I’m not a francophile I will need to ask about it again in english.

I use Ableton Live and would like to know if I would be able to import the Max patch and use it like a plugin, having features like automation, multichannel support and such enabled, basically - would I be able to use it like Flux’s version in Live? Also, there’s any differences in sound quality between the two version?

Thanks so much for your time for answering me!

Cheers,

#2

Hi,

Very happy to have some Brazilian users!

Yes, it’s absolutely possible to import your patch into Max for Live and use it as a plugin.
Live has some limitations with regard to multichannel support, but for your binaural project that should be just fine.

You can find an example of device in the Forum Max Apps package.
(have a look at the “Spat for Live” patcher).

There’s no differences in sound quality between the Flux plugins and the Max implementation of Spat.
Under the hood, they both use the same code library.

Cheers,
T.

#3

Hey T, thanks for such a quick reply!

So, I had a look into Spat for Live patcher and I have some further questions for you, if at all possible.

I think I referenced myself wrongly about what “multichannel” means. I’ll copy a paragraph of the manual to explain what feature I’m talking about: “To allow for a global description of the reproduced effect, the temporal aspects (artificial reverberation) and the directional aspects (localization of sound sources and spatial content of the room effect) are integrated in a single processor. This allows to overcome the limitations of heterogeneous systems in which the localization of sound sources and the reverberation effect are generated with separate devices.” Would I be possible to do something like that - use a single processor - with Spat on M4L? Would I be able to place different sound sources on only one space/processesor? Or would I have to use multiple instances of Spat with the same settings - or involve something like ToscA?

On another naive note, since I’m just starting with Max: I tried to copy the bpatcher from Spat for Live into a Max Audio Effect in Live but I couldn’t do it - this is because I don’t have the Spat proprietary library of objects installed, right?

Finally, would I be able to use Spat on M4L only as the SpatforLive patch? Or would I be able to import the patch which contains the visual interface?

Thanks so much for your help!

Cheers,

#4

Hi,

I’m currently out of the office, and I dont have access to Ableton Live.
So, I’ll get back to you with further details as soon as I’m back at Ircam (next week).

T.

#5

hi,

on my side, i also use spat in conjonction with ableton, but decided that it was much efficient to manage this by rooting ableton output into max, and manage the patches there. I m not sure othewise how you can overtake ableton limitations when it comes to multichannel. As far as i know, you can’t create a multichannel bus (unlike other daw like nuendo, logic etc ) - so the only solution would be to use the return channels. Some people created m4live patches using that approach (http://sonicbloom.net/en/xy-send-nodes-circlepan-free-max-for-live-effect-for-surround-sound-or-send-automation/ ) - but still it is really limited compares to what is capable Spat. We are actually talking about two different planets here.

hope that helps!
-eric

#6

hey eric!

thanks so much for your input. so, yes, ableton doesn’t work with multichannel. the workflow you described I believe would force me to use ToscA for automation work, right?

I want to be able to put different sound sources in the same “space” for two reasons:
save CPU power, as I would use only one processor, since I will compose and mix my binaural project on the go instead of mixing it after the composition it’s done - and for going after the effect multiple sound sources would do to each other inside the same spat processor. the later its something I suppose must happen to sound very different of the method that would incorporate lots of spat processors using the same room parameters for each sound source, since the manual points out to such effect on the paragraph I pointed out in my last post. this is something that spat must do it uniquely, sounding very apart of the M4L by sonic bloom. but this sonic bloom device also sets a point on the case that spat would be able to work someway like I would expect it to, since the max workframe seems to allow audio routing “inside the hood” in ableton live, which would allow us to use a unique spat processor for the whole project while sending multiple sound sources to it with different localizations parameters for each one. this is very different than working with the Max patch outside ableton when it comes to something like automation or bouncing audio.

I hope I got to communicate my idea properly!

t,

thanks for that again! i’ll be on hold for your directions. (:

cheers,

#7

I see,

well what about not using ableton at all, and going through another daw? i also mixed in binaural, but i actually prepared a surround mixed first (with cubase for instance), then encoded it using spat, within max directly.
I also streamed live in binaural with ableton/max, encoding the output directly - but that was live (i have a bunch of controlers talking to max/spat).

If you want to be able to automate/write parameters of spat, i’d suggest to use another daw, as i said, using tosca. Anyways, it involves you have a max patch prepared (i dont know so much about max4live solution in that case)

-e

#8

hey E.,

i believe this workflow would get to much in the way for what I want to achieve. I want to work the binaural mixing as I compose and do not want (or have the time) to separate the process in two stages. I’ll have to do a bunch of redos and that way I would not be able to recall a project instantly. also, being able to freeze a track or bounce it at will is a must for the job.

T.,

There’s no demo evaluation for me to test the possibilities for myself, (otherwise I would not be bothering you with so many questions, so sorry!) but my deadline is getting closer and I need to make a decision about the tools for the job. I wanted to know a few things since I’ve been trying the demo of Flux’s Spat.

. The SpatForLive patch on the ForumMaxApps pack is quite a stripped down version compared to the Flux plugin. Would I be able to use more advanced features such as Reverb options like modal densinty and etc somehow?

. Are those other devices inside the ForumMaxApps Spat pack, like the IrcamVerb, compatible with M4L?

. Could I simply just drag the complete Spat patch (if there’s one) and use it inside Live, so I could use features such the visual feedback and control?

The routing of multiple soundsources to a unique Spat instance inside the hood in live would be something very cool to have sometime in the future, but I already gave up on the idea. Being able to freeze each track with it’s own Spat patch inside it sounds something more useful on the run for me right now.

You can’t imagine how grateful I’m for such help!
Cheers,

D.

#9

Hi,

I think Eric made a pretty good summary of the situation, and I dont have much to add to that.
(I am also not an expert of Ableton Live)

Regarding your latest questions:

  • yes, you could use “advanced features” such as modal density, etc. But you would have to modify the SpatForLive patch yourself to make them appear.
  • yes, all other spat components, e.g. IrcamVerb, could be used similarly in Max for Live. Again, you would have to build the Live devices yourself.
  • not so sure what you meant with “drag the complete Spat patch”. But at least the spat’s graphical user interfaces can be used in Ableton Live.

Hope this helps,
T.